#120 - Riding the Waves: Finding flow surf kayaking the Great Lakes with Keith Wikle

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Welcome to Paddling the Blue. With each episode, we talk with guests from the

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Great Lakes and around the globe who are doing cool things related to sea kayaking.

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I'm your host. My name is John Chase, and let's get started paddling the blue.

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Welcome to today's episode of Paddling the Blue.

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Keith Wikle is our guest today. Keith is a prolific surf kayaker and coach

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among other disciplines here in the Great Lakes region.

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And today we talk about how Keith finds flow surfing a boat,

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his mentors, his experience organizing events, and what's next.

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And Keith drops some excellent knowledge and key tips to help you grow your

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enjoyment when those waves kick up. We'll hear from Keith in just a moment.

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James and Simon at OnlineSeaKyking.com continue to produce great content to

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help you evolve as a paddler and as a coach.

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And you'll find everything from basic strokes and safety to paddling in tides,

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surfing, surfing coaching documentaries and their

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latest edition expedition skills and incident management it's

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all in one place so if you're not already a subscriber to onlineseakayaking.com

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here is your opportunity to get started visit onlineseakayaking.com use the

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coupon code ptb podcast to check out and you'll get 10 off just for being a

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member of the paddling the blue community enjoy today's episode with Keith Wikle

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hey keith thanks for joining paddling the blue Hi there, John.

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So, Keith, you've got a pretty wide background. ACA, a Level 5 instructor,

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a surf kayak instructor, sea kayaker, symposium director, and music lover, and more.

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So, tell us a little bit about you and how you got started paddling. Yeah.

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I moved kind of out to the west side of Michigan in about 1999,

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2000. And then I was kind of done playing soccer, which I'd done for a long time.

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So I was kind of in my late 20s, early 30s, and then was looking for a more

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individual sport to get into.

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And brother-in-law up on Thumb Lake put me in a kayak and just kind of looked

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down and the water's on both sides. And I was like, I think I get this.

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And really, really got into that, you know, in the late 90s,

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starting in the metro Detroit area.

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But my paddling really took off when I moved out to the to the west side of

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Michigan, where I was able to get access to Lake Michigan pretty much whenever I wanted.

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And that really kind of catapulted my love of, you know, both sea kayaking and

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kayak surfing because I was able to, you know, watch the weather and kind of

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be able to get out whenever I wanted to.

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Which is a big thing for, you know, early paddling is to get out in a variety

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of conditions and really start developing.

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And that's kind of where things got started. Cool. So what do you attribute

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to developing your skills?

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I think a number of things like in the early days of paddling going back,

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you know, almost 25 years.

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When I first got into paddling, it was on the east side of the state in the metro Detroit area.

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And Great River Outfitters had pool lessons out at Schoolcraft College.

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And that was my first exposure to anybody who knew anything about kayaking.

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And there's this guy named Bert and another guy named Scott Faraday that taught

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me to roll in the pool in about 98, 99, something like that.

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And that was my exposure at the beginning. And then even when I moved out to

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the west side of the state, you know, Lee's was a shop in Kalamazoo.

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And a buddy of mine, lifelong friend now, Jason Ruhn, spent a little bit more

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time with me refining my role because that's obviously a gateway skill for the

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kind of paddling that I do.

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That really helped. And then Lee's would have, you know, surf days out at the lake.

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And then I got really interested in, you know, finding better and better equipment

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and being able to develop that and being really focused on skills.

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And I, I still like to think that like the trick is like getting exposed to

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good coaching and then getting,

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you know, direction for good focused practice and then really making sure that

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you, you put it into play as often as possible.

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And just, you know, hundreds and hundreds of hours out there catching waves.

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Yeah. Seat time in the boat makes a difference.

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It does. Yeah. It's the big separator between people who develop and people who don't. Yeah.

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So, so 99, you started paddling. When did you start your coaching journey?

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So in, I think it was like 2003 or so, I did a four-star with Kelly Blades and

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Laurie Stegmaier, and I think it was Paul Fishback.

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And so we did a four-star, and then...

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That was like my first exposure even to like, you know, kind of certification

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training type of things with sea kayaking.

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And then after that, I did an early kind of coach to development thing through

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Ron Smith in the very old days of the BCU stuff.

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Cause I think, I don't think they even had a coach one at the time,

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or if they did, I didn't take it. I went straight to a coach too.

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Cause I done a four-star.

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And then after that, I had also done a few years later when kind of the BCU

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stuff was waning a little bit.

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I did an ACA program with Ryan Rushton in Chicago, Ryan Rushton and Scott,

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when Scott went over to Geneva. Okay.

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So interesting. You started BC first.

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Yeah, BCU was really popular in like late 90s, early 2000s.

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Yeah, it was very, very popular. Like obviously because of GRO,

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Great River Outfitters was heavily invested in the BCU system.

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And to my surprise, when I went to Kalamazoo in Lees, they had developed more

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people in the ACA system at that time.

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So how do you see just obviously they're different systems today than they were

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in the past. But just out of curiosity, what do you see comparisons between the two?

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Yeah, I mean, the total separation of paddler skill from coaching practice was the biggest one.

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And that just because you had the skills to paddle didn't mean that you had

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worked at all on your coaching practice.

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And I was really fortunate later on, even after my ACA certification,

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that they'd revamped the British coaching system.

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And we got a number of coaches that WIMCA sponsored actually through their symposium

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that I really pushed hard for them or advocated, you know, for them to bring

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on as guest coaches for their event,

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but also to train paddlers before the event to do the new British coaching system.

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So the British canoeing coach one and coach two and Shauna and Leon from Body

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Boat Blade came and did one section of the program.

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And then Nick Cunliffe from, he's actually from Liverpool, but you know,

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from North Wales also came out and did a section of the program.

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And then I think we even had Steve McDonald come out and do from Scotland as

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part of the Gales to help people finish up some of their canoeing certifications,

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because that was the new practice in about 2010s is that in the early parts

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of the British coaching system,

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it's both independent.

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In other words, like paddling is paddling.

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So both canoeing or stand-up paddleboarding and kayaking are part of the curriculum

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until you get into sea kayak coaching,

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which is like a whole way to kind of track out their system so that in the early

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parts of the program, paddling is paddling, whether it's with a single blade,

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whether you're standing, sitting or kneeling.

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So, and I think that approach to paddle sports coaching is really valuable.

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But the other part of it is kind of this paddler pathway idea that the British

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coaching system has is that, you know, not everybody's going to turn into,

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you know, a competitive, you know, racer or surf kayaker or,

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you know, whitewater freestyle.

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Some people are casual or some people want to develop as sea kayakers. Yeah.

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In the past, coach-centered paddling would basically everybody gets kind of

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the same input and output,

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whereas in the British coaching system, depending on what you're interested

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in, we may tailor the coaching activities based on what you want as an outcome,

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which turns it into paddler-centric or student-centric coaching.

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Coaching and that was a huge shift in about

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the 2010s is that all of us got in on

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that program and almost every single person that was involved in that program

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has really gone on to develop as a pretty great coach because of that so pretty

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novel idea of listening to your student and figuring out what they want yeah

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yeah that and the the idea that paddling is paddling and this goes into whether

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you know euro or greenland paddling like it's all pretty much the same at the beginner level.

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There's definitely more advanced things that you can do.

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But, you know, when you're just getting interested in paddling,

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you know, trying out canoeing or stand-up paddle boarding and seeing how things

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are more the same than different is really, really valuable to people.

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And as a result of those programs, I ended up getting a canoe and a stand-up

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paddle board and still canoe all the time because I hadn't really worked much on my canoeing.

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And if anything, it informed a lot of my kayaking with different strokes and

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approaches and And thinking about how you shift your body weight and all that

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to reshape the boat. So I found it really valuable.

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Cool. So do you still stay engaged with the BC system?

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So, you know, the trick was, is that at the time there was Paddle Sports North

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America or BCUNA as kind of an entity.

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And there were some coaches that were involved with that that could do certifications

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and run programs and things.

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But what ended up happening is that British coaching elected not to enable North

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America or U.S.-based coaches to run all of their own programs.

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And as a result of that, what that meant is that we would either,

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A, have to go to England or always get somebody from the U.K.

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To come give coaching and certifications here. and that ended up being counterproductive

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to us wanting to run our own, you know, country and system.

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And believe it or not, you know, I'd always advocated for the,

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to invest that energy into the American Canoe Association rather than continuing

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to invest in a system that frankly,

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probably didn't really care that much about us or want us involved.

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And, you know, the American Canoe Association, as soon as that dried up,

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a lot more people got more invested into the ACA.

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So it may have actually been a fortuitous turn of events for that door to close

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off, because as a result, a lot of different people then got really invested in the ACA.

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So why do you suppose BC shut the door? Yeah.

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I think they were worried about standards and practices and that,

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you know, was the coaching going to be of the level of quality that they would like?

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And, you know, maybe there's a little bit of kind of cultural prejudice and

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belief that they were superior.

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You know, I don't think anybody would argue too hard with me that maybe the

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English or the British in particular may have a little bit of cultural superiority.

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And they did develop a lot of great coaching practice. this.

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And like, you know, I still use a lot of that almost every time I coach,

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but at the same time, you know, like they, I think they felt like,

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you know, we were not really up to scratch and that they wanted to keep sending

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British coaches to ensure the purity of the program.

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Okay. Do you see that changing?

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It's hard to say, cause I don't really participate in any of the BCU programs.

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I can say from the ACA, there have been a number of massive improvements in

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terms of thinking about isolating paddle or skill from coaching activities.

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And they mandated that you have to have a skill assessment in order to do a coaching program,

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where almost all of the coaching programs that I did in the early days was a

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huge mix of both teaching people to paddle and then maybe certifying them as coaches.

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And I think in the years since that happened 20 years ago or whatever,

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that that is massively improved.

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And that for in a lot of cases in these programs now that there's a lot less

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paddler instruction and a lot more coach instruction.

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And I think that is a huge improvement. Yeah, I would agree. Definitely agree.

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You mentioned a name in there that has been a big impact on you from the beginning, Scott.

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Tell us a little bit about Scott. Yeah. Yeah, it'll probably be hard to talk

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about it without getting a little bit worked up.

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But, you know, the beautiful part of it is, is that, you know,

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I've known, I knew Scott for a long time, you know, like 97,

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98 or something like that, all the way up until he died.

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And, you know, I was really fortunate to, after he left GRO,

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to reconnect with him when he started working at Geneva and then also at Power

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of Water, where he eventually ended his career.

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But, you know, Scott and I did a ton of stuff, a lot of long road trips together,

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you know, going to do rivers or going up to the UP.

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And then he was massively influential in my coaching and my paddling.

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And, you know, I think everybody talks about things that Scott would tell them.

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And, you know, I think for somebody that was, you know, not from the Great Lakes,

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I think he was from Vermont originally.

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And the Northeast, he came out here and started working for GRO.

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And, you know, I don't really think they ever took full advantage of Scott.

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And, you know, obviously, when that shop closed, you know, he went over to a new shop in Chicago.

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And it was really interesting to see him balanced with a newer business owner

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who was a younger coach, very athletic, great paddler, Ryan Rushna is a great coach.

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You know, he's really talented and just an amazing athlete.

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But then there's Scott, who, you know, had done so much stuff,

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so much sea kayaking, so many rivers.

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And he really balanced out some of that, you know, that younger energy that

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Ryan had and really put a lot of like good kind of risk assessment,

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you know, thinking into what Ryan did.

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And then, you know, when Geneva ended up closing and Scott came back to Michigan, ironically,

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I tried to put him with the Lees and had him have a couple of initial conversations

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with Skip Lee at Lees about working there because,

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you know, all of us wanted to keep Scott close because of how much we valued

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his, his friendship and his, and his paddling.

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And then fortunately at that time, you know, Trey kind of, uh,

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started up power of water after having come to the gales and us giving him kind

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of a leg up and some of his coaching and stuff. And I think he was really impressed with Scott, obviously.

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And then that's where he ended up spending the most time. And,

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you know, I told Tara this and Trey that like the happiest I ever saw him was

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at Power of Water out of all of those jobs that he had.

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And, you know, his coaching really took flight when he was at Power of Water

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because obviously, you know, Scott had tons more experience than Trey in coaching and paddling.

219
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And so, you know, in those early years, Trey really relied on Scott's judgment

220
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and his ideas on paddling and coaching and stuff.

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And then, you know, that really helped Trey get his feet underneath him to develop

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into what he's developed into.

223
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And for me, like, you know, what I miss is, you know, the, the,

224
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you know, times when I'd go out to, you know, go surfing and Scott and,

225
00:15:25,696 --> 00:15:29,036
and a few other people from Lansing would come out and it was always just such

226
00:15:29,036 --> 00:15:32,156
a hoot to have him out because, you know, if,

227
00:15:32,336 --> 00:15:35,676
if it was big and dangerous, you know, you could kind of get a bit of wisdom

228
00:15:35,676 --> 00:15:39,116
from Scott where he'd just shake his head and say, you know,

229
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the calories to fun ratio is off.

230
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It's just too many calories and he wouldn't go. And, you know,

231
00:15:44,236 --> 00:15:48,056
for the younger group of us that were out there ready to go into,

232
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you know, 30 knot direct onshore winds like we were talking about before the

233
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recording started, you know, that's where Scott would have said,

234
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maybe another day is better.

235
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And I think I think all of us picked up on that on the risk reward piece.

236
00:16:01,356 --> 00:16:04,056
And that is still one of the bigger ones. But the other part is that,

237
00:16:04,156 --> 00:16:07,876
you know, you could make fun out of just about anything.

238
00:16:07,996 --> 00:16:12,616
And that was a big Scott thing that like, you know, hitting class five moves

239
00:16:12,616 --> 00:16:16,476
on class two water was his saying, right, that were like, if you could hit a

240
00:16:16,476 --> 00:16:20,976
really classy move in class two water, then it was time to worry about the conditions being bigger.

241
00:16:21,756 --> 00:16:25,896
But until then, you know, like you, you, you should make a meal out of something

242
00:16:25,896 --> 00:16:27,756
smaller until your skills get better.

243
00:16:28,056 --> 00:16:32,696
And, you know, having worked with him on the gales and all these other kayak coaching events,

244
00:16:32,816 --> 00:16:39,456
you know, he could entertain anybody with a really basic challenge in and around

245
00:16:39,456 --> 00:16:43,296
rocks or a pier or whatever it was for a very long time.

246
00:16:43,296 --> 00:16:46,956
I mean, he had high level people that would come and he would give them a task

247
00:16:46,956 --> 00:16:51,036
and some of us would be doing that task in a basic, basic way.

248
00:16:51,136 --> 00:16:54,616
And Scott, you know, if somebody was, was having a lot of success,

249
00:16:54,796 --> 00:16:58,156
he would give them something even more difficult than what the other people

250
00:16:58,156 --> 00:17:02,456
were doing until like their skills would break. And then he would pull them

251
00:17:02,456 --> 00:17:06,076
back and then break down the skill and explain, you know, how they might succeed.

252
00:17:06,376 --> 00:17:08,416
And this is with really skilled paddlers.

253
00:17:08,756 --> 00:17:12,896
And like, to this day, I don't think I've ever seen anybody that gifted that

254
00:17:12,896 --> 00:17:16,736
way, where they could basically keep a wide variety of paddlers entertained

255
00:17:16,736 --> 00:17:21,296
in a very small area, doing something, you know, really simple,

256
00:17:21,456 --> 00:17:24,736
but that would keep your brain challenged the entire time.

257
00:17:25,136 --> 00:17:27,636
Yeah, I only had the chance to work with Scott a couple of times,

258
00:17:27,716 --> 00:17:29,996
but each time, more and more impressed.

259
00:17:30,176 --> 00:17:33,176
And he really came alive on the water, had a lot of fun.

260
00:17:34,376 --> 00:17:39,096
Yeah, had a lot of laughs with Scott. And I have a lot of good memories of him

261
00:17:39,096 --> 00:17:42,396
pulling faces and just making people laugh.

262
00:17:43,936 --> 00:17:46,056
He had a phrase, two words. Yes.

263
00:17:46,780 --> 00:17:54,220
Yeah. Suck less. Yeah. Although the often forgotten part was the paddle more, suck less. All right.

264
00:17:55,360 --> 00:18:00,180
Like you said, time in the boat makes a difference. So you mentioned another

265
00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:03,180
acronym, WIMCA. So tell us a little bit about that and what it stands for.

266
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,680
WIMCA is the West Michigan Coastal Kayakers Association. And it's a club that

267
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,740
when I moved to the West side of the state was super active with a lot of really

268
00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:18,740
talented, fun people that has an annual event on Big Blue Lake on Memorial Day weekend.

269
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It's like the really one of the only beginner kind of kayaking events that's left.

270
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:29,460
And the club is at that time when I joined was super active and a lot of great

271
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people. They had pool sessions.

272
00:18:31,340 --> 00:18:37,100
And that's how I met a ton of people and got to do amazing trips in my early days because,

273
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:41,000
you know, finding people to do cool stuff with was a big part of joining that

274
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club and was really fortunate to meet,

275
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you know people like fritz quant and laurie stagmeyer

276
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and paul fishback and especially doug van

277
00:18:49,940 --> 00:18:52,740
doren who was really really formative and for my

278
00:18:52,740 --> 00:18:58,280
paddling and i've gotten to do a ton of paddling with these people and that's

279
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,120
really what i think about when i think about the club and you know the event

280
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:10,180
and those and that kind of like probably like oh three to about 2010 2010 was,

281
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,460
I mean, just off the hook great.

282
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,680
I mean, we had great guest coaches and all of the local coaches that would come

283
00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:23,860
like Rob Taylor and John Holmes and Laurie and Rick and, you know, Doug Van Doren,

284
00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:28,500
Ron Smith and, you know, Michael Gray and Laurie Levkinect in the old days,

285
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,760
Adrian Levkinect's mother, who's really fun and a great paddler in her own right,

286
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,700
all came and Bonnie Perry and people like that who, you know,

287
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:37,960
really became mentors of mine.

288
00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:43,000
And it was just like a fun kind of summer camp vibe at the symposium.

289
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,460
And, you know, there would be, you know, slideshow presentations and talks and,

290
00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,040
you know, the number of people that have come up to me about the people that

291
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,240
I recruited for the slideshow talks in those years,

292
00:19:54,320 --> 00:20:00,760
you know, and mentioned things like the John Turk presentation that was given or Jeff Allen, Alan,

293
00:20:00,820 --> 00:20:05,060
who came and gave a great talk at WIMCO or Simon Osborne that we got to come

294
00:20:05,060 --> 00:20:09,600
over when Simon was brand new into coaching and expeditioning.

295
00:20:10,429 --> 00:20:15,009
Justine Kurgenvin, you know, for this is the C2 that we made sure to try and

296
00:20:15,009 --> 00:20:19,329
get Doug in front of the lens at the time to kind of celebrate Doug a bit like

297
00:20:19,329 --> 00:20:20,769
those were and Nigel Foster.

298
00:20:20,829 --> 00:20:25,389
I think we had Nigel Foster twice and Sean and Leon came twice and everybody

299
00:20:25,389 --> 00:20:29,449
just really, you know, it really fed both the coaches energy and the participants

300
00:20:29,449 --> 00:20:34,569
energy to be excited to be there and made paddling a lot more fun.

301
00:20:34,729 --> 00:20:37,949
And then as a result, you know, I made a lot of lifelong long friends out of that.

302
00:20:38,429 --> 00:20:42,409
You mentioned a lot of names in there that have been guests of the show as well.

303
00:20:42,769 --> 00:20:46,749
Oh yeah. Yeah. And Wimka, I think a lot of people would probably credit Wimka

304
00:20:46,749 --> 00:20:49,749
with their exposure to some of those people in the Midwest because,

305
00:20:49,829 --> 00:20:56,289
you know, Great Lakes didn't always have guest coaches in that way because this

306
00:20:56,289 --> 00:21:01,029
was back when, you know, that was the, the kind of mode for symposiums,

307
00:21:01,029 --> 00:21:02,469
but Great Lakes didn't always do that.

308
00:21:02,549 --> 00:21:06,749
Sometimes they did, but Wimco we were really focused on that and I think that

309
00:21:06,749 --> 00:21:09,649
really helped kind of fuel the excitement for the event.

310
00:21:10,149 --> 00:21:15,829
So we have a lot of listeners all around the world and many listeners may be

311
00:21:15,829 --> 00:21:21,449
surprised to learn that just what a paddling mecca and what a surf mecca that

312
00:21:21,449 --> 00:21:25,669
the Great Lakes is so tell us a little bit about surfing on the Great Lakes.

313
00:21:26,369 --> 00:21:31,729
Yeah so surfing on the Great Lakes has actually gotten really, really popular.

314
00:21:32,149 --> 00:21:36,069
When I first started, like I've been mentioning in the early 2000s,

315
00:21:36,089 --> 00:21:40,509
there'd be maybe four or five guys on long boards out there while I was out

316
00:21:40,509 --> 00:21:44,409
trying to catch waves, either in a sea kayak or as I developed into a smaller surf kayak.

317
00:21:44,689 --> 00:21:49,689
There'd be long boarders out there. Now, there's a mixture of all kinds of different

318
00:21:49,689 --> 00:21:55,209
boards and crafts, up to and including foil boards with wing sails and that kind of thing.

319
00:21:56,069 --> 00:21:59,149
But all of the lakes to a greater or lesser extent

320
00:21:59,149 --> 00:22:02,149
have a very dedicated group of both

321
00:22:02,149 --> 00:22:07,589
board surfers and some paddle surfers paddle surfing is still probably the most

322
00:22:07,589 --> 00:22:11,669
underground of the types of surfing that there is to to do i mean a part i mean

323
00:22:11,669 --> 00:22:16,869
there's lots of sup or stand-up paddleboard surfing but not i think if i see

324
00:22:16,869 --> 00:22:19,369
someone in a surf kayak it's usually because I sold them one.

325
00:22:20,049 --> 00:22:26,369
Um, so the, but it's surfing in general has gotten really popular and everybody,

326
00:22:26,509 --> 00:22:30,209
you know, has, especially the board surfers and I, which, you know,

327
00:22:30,229 --> 00:22:33,609
I've got a lot of friends in the board surfing and standup paddling community

328
00:22:33,609 --> 00:22:37,249
that are either local or from all over West Michigan.

329
00:22:37,349 --> 00:22:42,069
And, you know, those, that crew is kind of pretty tight and we all watch the

330
00:22:42,069 --> 00:22:45,449
weather together and people text each other to get out at the same time.

331
00:22:45,449 --> 00:22:49,309
And as an example, yesterday, a bunch of us were texting early in the morning

332
00:22:49,309 --> 00:22:53,469
about whether or not it was going to be worth going out to Lake Michigan in a north storm.

333
00:22:53,809 --> 00:22:58,009
But yeah, it's developed quite a bit. So what got you started surfing?

334
00:22:59,699 --> 00:23:05,439
I think as soon as I got into, you know, a sea kayak and then was out on Lake

335
00:23:05,439 --> 00:23:08,379
Michigan, you know, figured out really quickly that, you know,

336
00:23:08,379 --> 00:23:12,759
surfing was going to be really fun, but that, you know, some skill development

337
00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:13,699
was going to be required.

338
00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:18,559
But, you know, that thrill of, you know, getting the boat planing and,

339
00:23:18,579 --> 00:23:24,779
you know, traveling down a steep face and really is like probably the closest thing to,

340
00:23:24,819 --> 00:23:29,059
you know, perfection that there is just in the sense that, you know,

341
00:23:29,079 --> 00:23:34,719
you really can't think about your job or how much money you have in the bank

342
00:23:34,719 --> 00:23:39,579
or whatever problems you're having at work or at home or anything when you're surfing.

343
00:23:39,659 --> 00:23:43,299
Like you have to be focused in the moment all the time.

344
00:23:43,379 --> 00:23:46,559
Otherwise it just doesn't work. You'll just capsize and get wiped out if you're,

345
00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:48,699
if you're not focusing on what you're doing.

346
00:23:49,099 --> 00:23:54,879
So that's kind of what I was after was that sensation of being a hundred percent

347
00:23:54,879 --> 00:23:59,759
in the moment, really focused and, you know, trying to get good enough that,

348
00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:03,319
you know, you could surf rather than be surfed if you follow,

349
00:24:03,439 --> 00:24:06,499
like to really have control of the boat and which direction you're going.

350
00:24:06,779 --> 00:24:10,499
And I really loved the challenge and like, it doesn't matter which type of boat

351
00:24:10,499 --> 00:24:12,799
or even board at this point, I still really love it.

352
00:24:13,299 --> 00:24:16,219
So what advice would you have for those looking to start surfing?

353
00:24:17,919 --> 00:24:21,779
You know, obviously the gateway skill, kind of like when we talk about gateway

354
00:24:21,779 --> 00:24:25,099
wave skills for other sports, you know, like windsurfing, it's being able to

355
00:24:25,099 --> 00:24:27,279
jibe or water start your board.

356
00:24:27,679 --> 00:24:30,659
Kite surfing, it's definitely water starting the board and making sure that,

357
00:24:30,699 --> 00:24:32,119
you know, you don't foul up the kite.

358
00:24:32,459 --> 00:24:35,959
And for kayaking, it's definitely rolling.

359
00:24:36,519 --> 00:24:39,539
And so you have to be able to roll like, cause until you can roll,

360
00:24:39,659 --> 00:24:40,879
it's basically just a bunch of swimming.

361
00:24:42,999 --> 00:24:45,819
Because you will get flipped over. I mean, it's very

362
00:24:45,819 --> 00:24:48,759
rare that I go out and don't get had flipped over at least once while

363
00:24:48,759 --> 00:24:54,679
i'm out surfing and so rolling is the big one but the next one past that like

364
00:24:54,679 --> 00:25:00,199
in terms of like just thinking of basic core skill stuff is that you know the

365
00:25:00,199 --> 00:25:06,759
advice is to start small you know like if you can catch you know one two foot waves and.

366
00:25:07,499 --> 00:25:11,479
Keep everything under control and have control of your direction of travel and everything

367
00:25:11,639 --> 00:25:15,079
and then you know not really getting yourself exposed to

368
00:25:15,079 --> 00:25:17,899
you know crazy crazy conditions at first because you

369
00:25:17,899 --> 00:25:20,899
want to make sure that you have everything under control and then the other

370
00:25:20,899 --> 00:25:23,999
thing that you know makes this really challenging for

371
00:25:23,999 --> 00:25:27,419
people is you know whitewater is a great gateway sport

372
00:25:27,419 --> 00:25:31,939
into surfing where being able to surf in a little boat on a green water wave

373
00:25:31,939 --> 00:25:37,239
where you can hit the same move over and over and over again on a green wave

374
00:25:37,239 --> 00:25:41,939
really makes your life easier and then you're not as committed if you just go

375
00:25:41,939 --> 00:25:44,039
out to a little play spot in a whitewater boat.

376
00:25:44,179 --> 00:25:48,079
Whereas like in surfing, you from you can see from the beach what it's going

377
00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:49,839
to look like and how big it's going to be.

378
00:25:49,879 --> 00:25:53,439
And it may be over your head, whereas a little play wave, you know,

379
00:25:53,439 --> 00:25:56,099
without all the wind and and those types of things that,

380
00:25:56,567 --> 00:26:01,107
ends up letting you really develop your edge control, how your body weight affects

381
00:26:01,107 --> 00:26:06,627
your trim and your pressure on the rail and how fast you need to be going,

382
00:26:06,707 --> 00:26:09,567
how much paddle speed you need, all of those types of things.

383
00:26:09,627 --> 00:26:11,887
They're completely translatable between the two.

384
00:26:13,087 --> 00:26:16,547
So that's probably the best advice I have.

385
00:26:16,807 --> 00:26:21,647
And it's to think about trying smaller and smaller smaller boats.

386
00:26:23,907 --> 00:26:28,947
So with that in mind, what, what made the transit? So did you start surfing in a sea kayak?

387
00:26:29,307 --> 00:26:32,327
I did. Yeah. Yeah. I had never even seen a surf kayak.

388
00:26:32,747 --> 00:26:36,247
This was in the early days of the internet. So there was a little bit of information

389
00:26:36,247 --> 00:26:39,767
about surf kayaks and that's how I found out about it in kind of the early two

390
00:26:39,767 --> 00:26:41,887
thousands when the internet really kind of got cooking.

391
00:26:42,287 --> 00:26:45,607
So what was it that made the jump for you from a sea kayak to a surf kayak?

392
00:26:46,407 --> 00:26:50,727
Again, I have to go back to Lee's like shops are so valuable and it's really

393
00:26:50,727 --> 00:26:53,427
a shame because we've lost so many good shops over, you know,

394
00:26:53,427 --> 00:26:57,687
just a little bit before COVID and then through COVID, the pandemic really caused

395
00:26:57,687 --> 00:26:58,947
a lot of different shops to close.

396
00:26:59,047 --> 00:27:04,387
But being able to go out on Lake Michigan and Lee's had like a whole suite of

397
00:27:04,387 --> 00:27:07,527
composite boats and whitewater boats to surf.

398
00:27:07,627 --> 00:27:11,467
And so I had surfed whitewater boats on the Great Lakes and it was like it was

399
00:27:11,467 --> 00:27:13,567
better, but it wasn't quite best.

400
00:27:14,087 --> 00:27:17,567
And that's when I started doing research on surf kayaks and finding out that

401
00:27:17,567 --> 00:27:21,447
some of them were basically like surfboards that you sit inside that had fins on the bottom.

402
00:27:21,727 --> 00:27:24,747
And as soon as I saw that, I was like, oh, I get that.

403
00:27:24,847 --> 00:27:27,567
And because I had already made friends with a lot of board surfers,

404
00:27:27,567 --> 00:27:31,307
it made a lot of sense to me that a surf kayak for where I live,

405
00:27:31,327 --> 00:27:35,947
because I only live 45 minutes from South Haven, that a little boat that you

406
00:27:35,947 --> 00:27:39,147
could surf like a board would really work well for me.

407
00:27:39,147 --> 00:27:44,887
So I bought a Riot bogey, which is like, Riot is a whitewater kayak manufacturer.

408
00:27:45,127 --> 00:27:47,987
I think they're still around, and I think they may even still make the bogey.

409
00:27:48,227 --> 00:27:52,507
But it's like this kind of incredible Hulk, lime green looking boat that was

410
00:27:52,507 --> 00:27:53,647
plastic that had fins in it.

411
00:27:54,547 --> 00:27:59,367
And it did surf a lot better than a whitewater boat and a lot better than a sea kayak.

412
00:28:01,007 --> 00:28:06,147
So what has surfing taught you that's helped you in other paddling disciplines? Man, nothing.

413
00:28:07,261 --> 00:28:12,861
I think a big thing that I think about that I introduce as concepts for probably

414
00:28:12,861 --> 00:28:17,021
more advanced students is a concept of,

415
00:28:17,061 --> 00:28:28,141
you know, where your body weight is distributed and about how your torso and your head effectively,

416
00:28:28,341 --> 00:28:33,101
like most of the time when you're paddling, your head and your torso are centered over your seat.

417
00:28:33,661 --> 00:28:36,421
But in surfing the whole objective is to

418
00:28:36,421 --> 00:28:39,401
get your chest and your head away from the

419
00:28:39,401 --> 00:28:45,681
boat in order to provide what i call a phantom seat so that your your chest

420
00:28:45,681 --> 00:28:49,901
and your in your head which weigh kind of a lot when put together and what you're

421
00:28:49,901 --> 00:28:53,501
doing is you're getting your your most of your body weight of your chest and

422
00:28:53,501 --> 00:28:56,541
your head out over the water and not over the boat.

423
00:28:56,901 --> 00:29:03,421
And what that does is it frees up the boat to get more and more dynamically up on edge.

424
00:29:03,441 --> 00:29:08,401
And in surfing terms, that's called up on the rail or over the rail because

425
00:29:08,401 --> 00:29:11,981
surfboards have rails, not chines or a side.

426
00:29:12,261 --> 00:29:14,861
And so when we talk about surfing, we refer to it as the rail.

427
00:29:15,041 --> 00:29:21,281
And so that kind of over the rail sort of body weighting really completely frees

428
00:29:21,281 --> 00:29:25,421
up the boat and allows you to do a lot more dynamic carving and edging.

429
00:29:25,901 --> 00:29:32,361
So that's one big thing, and that translates into whitewater and even into canoeing

430
00:29:32,361 --> 00:29:35,481
and other things that, you know, without that ability to get your torso and

431
00:29:35,481 --> 00:29:36,881
your head out over the water,

432
00:29:37,021 --> 00:29:40,921
you're always going to be limited by the mobility of the boat.

433
00:29:41,001 --> 00:29:43,481
It doesn't matter how dynamic the conditions are, right?

434
00:29:43,921 --> 00:29:48,381
That, you know, if you're only ever over the center mass or the center line

435
00:29:48,381 --> 00:29:51,681
of your boat, You really are only experiencing about, you know,

436
00:29:51,701 --> 00:29:56,721
like 20 to 30% of the boat's mobility or maneuverability.

437
00:29:57,541 --> 00:30:03,681
So that's a big one. And then the other one I would say is that on a more basic level,

438
00:30:03,801 --> 00:30:08,941
the, what surfing has taught me is that, you know, efficiency and positioning

439
00:30:08,941 --> 00:30:17,061
out on the water, because, you know, being in the right place at the right time is a key skill in,

440
00:30:17,181 --> 00:30:21,581
you know, So paddling, whether it's whitewater or flatwater or whatever,

441
00:30:21,741 --> 00:30:26,801
but like where you're positioned is a big piece of surfing and being able to

442
00:30:26,801 --> 00:30:29,861
recognize your environment and where you should sit or not sit.

443
00:30:30,161 --> 00:30:35,761
And even if, you know, your positioning is to avoid being surfed, because obviously,

444
00:30:35,861 --> 00:30:39,701
like as an example, on the Nova Scotia trip, you know, with a fully laden,

445
00:30:39,701 --> 00:30:43,981
you know, sea kayak with, you know, 12 days of camping gear and water in it,

446
00:30:44,021 --> 00:30:46,141
you don't want to get surfed over rocks.

447
00:30:46,953 --> 00:30:50,813
So having that awareness of your environment, it really teaches you like where

448
00:30:50,813 --> 00:30:55,173
the energy is and how the energy flows in and around the land and how current

449
00:30:55,173 --> 00:30:56,513
or other things might affect it.

450
00:30:56,593 --> 00:30:57,933
So like if you've spent a ton of

451
00:30:57,933 --> 00:31:02,073
time surfing, like you have a much better awareness of your environment.

452
00:31:03,253 --> 00:31:07,493
So you mentioned getting your head and your torso out over the boat.

453
00:31:07,493 --> 00:31:10,653
Boat so for those who have been

454
00:31:10,653 --> 00:31:13,973
taught keep your nose over your navel how do

455
00:31:13,973 --> 00:31:17,433
you how do you take that and translate to not necessarily

456
00:31:17,433 --> 00:31:20,613
keeping your nose over your navel all the time but get

457
00:31:20,613 --> 00:31:24,233
yourself out away from that boat how do you suggest that people can work on

458
00:31:24,233 --> 00:31:32,473
that yeah really fun kind of entry-level design into this thinking is you know

459
00:31:32,473 --> 00:31:37,533
a low brace game where you throw a series of balls that float out into the water around you.

460
00:31:37,693 --> 00:31:42,073
And the objective is to float past the ball and then low brace,

461
00:31:42,133 --> 00:31:47,633
but with your face almost looking directly into your paddle blade so that someone

462
00:31:47,633 --> 00:31:51,293
who might be a little reluctant to get their body mass out over the water,

463
00:31:51,433 --> 00:31:55,133
what they'll do is because they're playing a game and they're trying to get

464
00:31:55,133 --> 00:31:59,873
their paddle out over the ball to dunk it under the water and they have to look

465
00:31:59,873 --> 00:32:01,093
at their blade, they'll automatically

466
00:32:01,433 --> 00:32:06,153
get their torso and their head out over the water, looking down at their blade.

467
00:32:06,393 --> 00:32:11,813
And then that's a great entry level sort of activity like that to get them to

468
00:32:11,813 --> 00:32:14,973
be more comfortable getting their body out over the water.

469
00:32:15,473 --> 00:32:19,313
The other one is kind of a progression exercise. So, you know,

470
00:32:19,313 --> 00:32:25,013
thinking about how skills and progression link together, I'll often teach ruddering

471
00:32:25,013 --> 00:32:28,833
where you, you know, build up some forward momentum,

472
00:32:29,153 --> 00:32:33,833
throw in a stern rudder, And then the trick is to blend that rudder into a skimming stroke,

473
00:32:34,053 --> 00:32:39,133
not necessarily a brace, but just with the blade gliding on the water and have

474
00:32:39,133 --> 00:32:43,213
them make sure that they're really following the path of the paddle with their

475
00:32:43,213 --> 00:32:47,173
head and looking at their blade. And you can...

476
00:32:48,024 --> 00:32:53,624
Kind of baby step them into an edge and committing to the blade once it's out

477
00:32:53,624 --> 00:32:55,664
at 90 and putting their weight out over it.

478
00:32:55,744 --> 00:32:59,764
And that's, those two things have been really good progressions to kind of get

479
00:32:59,764 --> 00:33:05,384
people used to moving their torso and head off of the center line of the boat.

480
00:33:05,964 --> 00:33:12,424
Many would say that surfing the Great Lakes is harder than ocean waves.

481
00:33:13,124 --> 00:33:17,804
Man, I would say that's an, it depends. I I will say that I don't think surfing

482
00:33:17,804 --> 00:33:20,264
the Great Lakes has done me any disservice.

483
00:33:20,404 --> 00:33:25,644
I mean, having surfed in California and, you know, on the East Coast and up

484
00:33:25,644 --> 00:33:29,204
in Skookum Chuck Narrows with, you know, sea kayaks and stuff,

485
00:33:29,344 --> 00:33:32,384
you know, all surfing is surfing.

486
00:33:32,544 --> 00:33:36,004
Like if the boat is planing, you know what I mean? And you're getting speed

487
00:33:36,004 --> 00:33:40,464
out of it and the boat is, you know, moving faster than the water, it's surfing.

488
00:33:41,064 --> 00:33:44,644
And then, you know, the Great Lakes can be really challenging because I will

489
00:33:44,644 --> 00:33:49,664
say most of the days when I surf, most of my friends from California that I

490
00:33:49,664 --> 00:33:53,984
know wouldn't even paddle out because it's just, you know, it's trashy and too windy.

491
00:33:54,604 --> 00:33:57,704
They would see the big waves, but say, oh, I'll wait for the wind to die off.

492
00:33:57,824 --> 00:33:59,984
But unfortunately, that just never happens in the Great Lakes.

493
00:34:00,024 --> 00:34:02,424
You just won't have the waves without the wind.

494
00:34:02,524 --> 00:34:07,184
Right. And as a result, you know, like, you know, you end up building a pretty

495
00:34:07,184 --> 00:34:12,264
solid set of skills about how to manage even a really tiny boat in big waves with lots of wind.

496
00:34:12,604 --> 00:34:16,004
And you also are managing shorter periods.

497
00:34:17,075 --> 00:34:23,795
And people say steep. I don't know that I would say that waves on the Great Lakes are any steeper.

498
00:34:23,815 --> 00:34:26,695
The period is shorter, but it's not that they're steeper per se.

499
00:34:27,115 --> 00:34:31,355
And then sometimes the shape of the waves obviously is not anywhere near as nice.

500
00:34:31,435 --> 00:34:36,835
But over the last 25 years, I've kind of gotten to the point where I can find

501
00:34:36,835 --> 00:34:39,595
waves that, you know, like when I show people videos of them,

502
00:34:39,615 --> 00:34:42,155
of me surfing, they're like, where is this?

503
00:34:42,155 --> 00:34:46,515
Because they can't quite figure out how I got a wave that looked like an ocean wave.

504
00:34:47,335 --> 00:34:51,295
And that has a lot to do with being really picky about when and where you surf,

505
00:34:51,455 --> 00:34:54,875
which, you know, kind of coming back to that conversation of not surfing on

506
00:34:54,875 --> 00:34:58,635
a due west day, because that basically is just all wind coming into shore and

507
00:34:58,635 --> 00:35:02,695
the shape of the wave isn't very nice because it's very short period and they

508
00:35:02,695 --> 00:35:04,455
basically just crumble right away.

509
00:35:04,595 --> 00:35:09,175
Whereas if you get any sort of a north-south bend in the wind direction,

510
00:35:09,375 --> 00:35:11,435
you can use something as a windbreak.

511
00:35:11,695 --> 00:35:16,115
And as the waves refract around that windbreak, it slows them down.

512
00:35:16,215 --> 00:35:20,515
And by slowing it down, it makes it seem like the period is much bigger,

513
00:35:20,575 --> 00:35:24,455
but it also definitely cleans up the face of the wave so that you're basically

514
00:35:24,455 --> 00:35:27,095
getting a more ocean-like wave to the point that,

515
00:35:27,135 --> 00:35:30,875
you know, there's a couple of spots in Michigan where I would say I've had some

516
00:35:30,875 --> 00:35:35,875
of the longest rides that I've ever had on a little surf boat on an unending left,

517
00:35:36,015 --> 00:35:39,155
you know, kind of in the middle of the state on a south wind.

518
00:35:39,275 --> 00:35:44,815
So basically you drop in right next to a pier and drop down the face of a wave and start carving left.

519
00:35:44,995 --> 00:35:50,415
And because of how nice that shape is, like it just keeps breaking left for like a quarter of a mile.

520
00:35:51,355 --> 00:35:57,955
Favorite places to surf? Wow. On the West Coast, I, you know,

521
00:35:57,955 --> 00:36:02,495
you'll never hear me say bad things about Santa Cruz and steamer lane,

522
00:36:02,615 --> 00:36:06,155
you know, after, you know, having been able to surf there in the surf competition,

523
00:36:06,435 --> 00:36:10,015
being able to surf during the competition, you're only surfing with three other

524
00:36:10,015 --> 00:36:13,715
people on, I mean, probably one of the most famous point breaks in the world.

525
00:36:14,175 --> 00:36:17,775
And it's just a beautiful peeling wave that goes on for like,

526
00:36:17,815 --> 00:36:19,615
you know, a quarter of a mile along the cliffs.

527
00:36:20,395 --> 00:36:24,015
It's steep and fast, but not mean.

528
00:36:24,295 --> 00:36:27,915
I mean, it can get really big because I've been out there when it's been you

529
00:36:27,915 --> 00:36:31,695
know like 12 14 feet and like yeah i mean like you definitely it has your full

530
00:36:31,695 --> 00:36:36,575
attention and if you're careless you'll wind up in a world of hurt but it it's.

531
00:36:37,455 --> 00:36:40,595
It's a peely ride rather than a dumpy ride

532
00:36:40,595 --> 00:36:46,135
and it's really fun and then down in san diego there's some spots in and around

533
00:36:46,135 --> 00:36:50,315
la jolla that are kind of local spots that are really awesome one of them called

534
00:36:50,315 --> 00:36:54,975
bird rock that's like a little reef and even in really small conditions like

535
00:36:54,975 --> 00:36:58,635
you'll get at a beautiful four foot bully reef break.

536
00:36:59,435 --> 00:37:02,355
That's amazing. And then in the Great Lakes,

537
00:37:03,220 --> 00:37:06,900
Some of my favorite spots, definitely South Haven is one of them because of

538
00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:11,780
the, the, you know, prevalent wind conditions out of the north and northwest

539
00:37:11,780 --> 00:37:16,060
and fall, like you will get waves about every three days in fall.

540
00:37:16,260 --> 00:37:20,880
So that's a big part of, you know, why I've gotten really focused on it is that

541
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:25,580
I can do it, you know, really frequently, especially throughout fall and spring.

542
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:31,820
And South Haven, you know, it can hold a really big wave that's really fun to

543
00:37:31,820 --> 00:37:35,720
surf. I mean, probably one of the bigger waves I've ever surfed,

544
00:37:35,720 --> 00:37:38,480
the biggest wave I've ever surfed on the Great Lakes is definitely in South Haven.

545
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,140
And, you know, right up by the edge of the pier and the lighthouse,

546
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,780
there's, you know, the sandbar from the Black River will dump sand out there

547
00:37:45,780 --> 00:37:47,720
and form a sandbar over the course of the summer.

548
00:37:47,780 --> 00:37:51,780
And, you know, a six, eight foot wave peeling over that, you know,

549
00:37:51,780 --> 00:37:56,460
makes for a really long, fun ride that's steep and dynamic and really fun.

550
00:37:56,460 --> 00:38:03,020
And then the other one is up north of Muskegon in Montague, which I think most people have heard of.

551
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,280
But that is the unending left that I'm talking about in a really fun south.

552
00:38:07,980 --> 00:38:12,580
It's a shorter pier, so it doesn't take as much wind to make a big wave there.

553
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:17,300
Because, you know, on longer piers, it takes a bigger wave to kind of make it

554
00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:20,020
around and refract around the bigger target.

555
00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:23,500
Target and in Montague, because it's a little shorter of a pier,

556
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:29,080
you can get a quite a big wave and it's just really awesome up there.

557
00:38:29,140 --> 00:38:30,800
And you know, it's not too popular.

558
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:36,300
So you can often have long rides with no competition, like no one's out there.

559
00:38:36,460 --> 00:38:38,960
Tell me about Santa Cruz surf championships.

560
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:44,300
Yeah. So the paddle Santa Cruz paddle fest, I think it's been going since like

561
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:46,380
the mid nineties or something like that.

562
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,640
And unfortunately, it's also on hiatus because they're looking for an organizer.

563
00:38:50,740 --> 00:38:56,820
Someone even asked me if I would organize it because they knew I had to organize things. But...

564
00:38:57,864 --> 00:39:02,604
You know, it's a great event. And like to have paddle surfing have its own competition,

565
00:39:03,344 --> 00:39:07,104
on, like I said, one of the world's most famous point breaks where like,

566
00:39:07,204 --> 00:39:10,524
you know, it's really like the home of American surfing.

567
00:39:10,744 --> 00:39:12,204
They have a statue of a guy on

568
00:39:12,204 --> 00:39:16,784
a longboard out there right on the point in Steamer Lane is really cool.

569
00:39:16,944 --> 00:39:20,384
And it's an amazing event, super friendly people.

570
00:39:20,764 --> 00:39:24,864
And like they have different events from, you know, they've got stand-up paddle surfing now.

571
00:39:25,004 --> 00:39:29,504
They've got high-performance kayak surfing, which is the type of boat that I

572
00:39:29,504 --> 00:39:32,924
have. They have IC or international competition, and then they have wave ski.

573
00:39:33,744 --> 00:39:37,504
And then I think they have a SUP race now as well.

574
00:39:37,664 --> 00:39:42,024
So they have a race that goes out and around some buoys in the harbor in Santa Cruz.

575
00:39:42,704 --> 00:39:46,384
But this competition gets the best from all over the world.

576
00:39:46,444 --> 00:39:50,964
Everyone loves that competition just because of how great the spot is and how amazing the people are.

577
00:39:51,244 --> 00:39:56,364
So that's gone on for a long time. But I mean, some amazing paddle surfers have

578
00:39:56,364 --> 00:40:00,324
won that competition, you know, from Sean Morley and Vince Shea,

579
00:40:00,464 --> 00:40:03,004
who designed boats for murky waters.

580
00:40:03,204 --> 00:40:08,704
And then Dave, Dave, the wave Johnson, who's a local guy who runs a guiding business.

581
00:40:08,824 --> 00:40:11,884
I mean, he's still like, total character, amazing guy.

582
00:40:12,164 --> 00:40:14,824
And, you know, usually places in the

583
00:40:14,824 --> 00:40:17,584
the top three and he's won it before as well and

584
00:40:17,584 --> 00:40:21,324
then there's some other newer younger guys like zach boyd who's

585
00:40:21,324 --> 00:40:24,844
local to california who's an incredible surfer

586
00:40:24,844 --> 00:40:28,424
just an amazing guy i mean he's just really

587
00:40:28,424 --> 00:40:33,724
powerful like i love watching that guy surf and there's a always people from

588
00:40:33,724 --> 00:40:40,324
overseas who come so there's a new cadre of bosque kayak surfers so there's

589
00:40:40,324 --> 00:40:44,064
a bunch of young people and And a few people that are closer to my age that

590
00:40:44,064 --> 00:40:46,044
come from the Basque country,

591
00:40:46,224 --> 00:40:50,684
Edu Ekstabera and Ode Ekstabera. Okay.

592
00:40:50,844 --> 00:40:55,044
And I think Edu is the father and Ode is the son. And...

593
00:40:56,316 --> 00:41:01,736
You know, they're incredible. I mean, like, and very, very nice people.

594
00:41:01,856 --> 00:41:04,936
Like they were giving me tips when I was there, like when I was surfing with

595
00:41:04,936 --> 00:41:07,756
them and, you know, just incredible kayakers.

596
00:41:07,836 --> 00:41:12,096
I mean, who like, you know, can pull super hot moves where they basically drop

597
00:41:12,096 --> 00:41:16,216
down the face, come up to the lip and then get air and then flip the boat and

598
00:41:16,216 --> 00:41:19,936
land back on their butt, you know, just, you know, really, really good surfers.

599
00:41:20,656 --> 00:41:25,016
So a lot of really, really great people, But I mean, you know,

600
00:41:25,016 --> 00:41:31,116
the competition, you know, it was great to be in it, but it was definitely humbling

601
00:41:31,116 --> 00:41:33,716
because of how great most of these surfers were.

602
00:41:34,136 --> 00:41:38,676
But it was also a really great experience for me to see that I was like,

603
00:41:38,756 --> 00:41:42,156
you know, all the training and all the courses and things that I've done that

604
00:41:42,156 --> 00:41:45,136
like, you know, I wasn't terrible, but I wasn't the best.

605
00:41:45,156 --> 00:41:48,396
So it was definitely like very middle of the pack, you know, kind of thing.

606
00:41:48,396 --> 00:41:53,896
But having been, I think, the only competitor from the Great Lakes ever in the

607
00:41:53,896 --> 00:41:54,756
history of that competition,

608
00:41:54,936 --> 00:41:59,716
I felt really proud of having gone out there and, you know, caught waves,

609
00:41:59,736 --> 00:42:05,196
scored points and not been, you know, you know, totally trounced by the conditions.

610
00:42:05,256 --> 00:42:09,056
But, you know, luckily, I'd been out there, I don't know, four or five times before that.

611
00:42:09,156 --> 00:42:11,516
So, you know, I kind of knew what I was getting into. too. Well,

612
00:42:11,596 --> 00:42:15,856
definitely a cool experience. And I will tell you that when you were out there, I do remember that.

613
00:42:15,936 --> 00:42:19,756
And I remember following the leaderboards on a daily basis and just kind of

614
00:42:19,756 --> 00:42:22,036
seeing how you were doing. It was pretty cool. Yeah.

615
00:42:23,476 --> 00:42:28,376
You mentioned organizing a minute ago. So you have been an organizer for the

616
00:42:28,376 --> 00:42:32,456
WIMCA, so West Michigan Coastal Kayak Symposium for a number of years,

617
00:42:32,496 --> 00:42:35,576
but you've also organized your own event. Tell us a little bit about that one.

618
00:42:36,511 --> 00:42:41,211
Yeah. So I organized WIMCA for a number of years where I was kind of part of

619
00:42:41,211 --> 00:42:41,911
the planning commission.

620
00:42:42,011 --> 00:42:45,091
They have a whole kind of committee and board that helps plan the WIMCA event.

621
00:42:45,351 --> 00:42:48,551
And there's a, you know, a symposium chair and a lead instructor.

622
00:42:49,151 --> 00:42:53,951
But in those years, in the early years, I was just like a floating at-large board member.

623
00:42:54,111 --> 00:42:55,591
And they would reach out to me

624
00:42:55,591 --> 00:42:58,551
about like, hey, who should we get to guest coach and that kind of thing.

625
00:42:58,691 --> 00:43:01,951
And they would put me on the planning committee. I was really young in those

626
00:43:01,951 --> 00:43:04,551
years, like, you know, probably not even 30 at the time.

627
00:43:04,731 --> 00:43:09,291
And so, you know, I got really excited by things like This Is The Sea with Justine

628
00:43:09,291 --> 00:43:13,671
Kurgenvin and, you know, saw Sean and Leon from Body Boat Blade in there.

629
00:43:14,111 --> 00:43:18,051
And then obviously Simon Osborne and Jeff Allen and people like that.

630
00:43:18,071 --> 00:43:20,571
And all of those people ended up coming to WIMCA.

631
00:43:20,871 --> 00:43:25,751
And that helped kind of fuel the event and make it really fun to attend and

632
00:43:25,751 --> 00:43:29,971
participants in particularly the coaches got a lot out of that to see,

633
00:43:29,971 --> 00:43:33,411
you know, know, what other people were up to from other regions and how they

634
00:43:33,411 --> 00:43:36,991
approach coaching and what got them excited and what they were thinking about.

635
00:43:37,831 --> 00:43:42,231
And that really got me put into a position where I was thinking like,

636
00:43:42,291 --> 00:43:43,991
okay, this beginner event is really good.

637
00:43:44,091 --> 00:43:46,991
And I'd been to Great Lakes. Obviously, I've been going to that since the beginning

638
00:43:46,991 --> 00:43:50,031
of my paddling career, not the beginning of Great Lakes.

639
00:43:50,431 --> 00:43:54,431
But, you know, what I really started thinking about was the opportunity that

640
00:43:54,431 --> 00:43:57,471
I would have wanted when I first started at WIMCA,

641
00:43:57,571 --> 00:44:02,631
which was, you know, kind of a rapid skill development that was based on getting

642
00:44:02,631 --> 00:44:06,391
people out in the conditions where they would actually use the skills that we

643
00:44:06,391 --> 00:44:07,311
were trying to teach them.

644
00:44:07,731 --> 00:44:11,631
So whether it was, you know, bracing and rolling or, you know,

645
00:44:11,631 --> 00:44:15,871
surfing or rock gardening or navigation and risk management,

646
00:44:16,011 --> 00:44:19,671
things like that, to actually have an event that focused on those things.

647
00:44:20,091 --> 00:44:23,971
And there wasn't one in the U.S. And I think at that point.

648
00:44:24,531 --> 00:44:27,911
There was lumpy water, but I don't think Golden Gate had started.

649
00:44:28,271 --> 00:44:34,151
And then so I tried to plan, you know, some of those through Wimka,

650
00:44:34,311 --> 00:44:37,071
you know, and basically have like a surf weekend or whatever.

651
00:44:37,251 --> 00:44:40,211
And, you know, two or three people would show up for that, but it didn't really

652
00:44:40,211 --> 00:44:43,291
gain any sort of groundswell of attendance.

653
00:44:44,431 --> 00:44:50,571
And after I did a coaching program over at Geneva Eva Kayak with Scott Faraday

654
00:44:50,571 --> 00:44:56,411
and Ryan Rushton, I decided to try and partner up with Ryan to put on a more advanced event.

655
00:44:56,611 --> 00:45:03,191
And we organized it and put it in Marquette with Sam Crowley.

656
00:45:03,391 --> 00:45:09,151
And that ended up being kind of a flatter weekend, but we had Sean and Leon

657
00:45:09,151 --> 00:45:13,231
out and people signed up, you know, and we had a good weekend.

658
00:45:13,511 --> 00:45:18,711
And then the next year we had talked about doing another location.

659
00:45:18,731 --> 00:45:22,931
And we did Wawa up in Canada with David Wells at Naturally Superior.

660
00:45:23,918 --> 00:45:27,058
And then it kind of gained some groundswell after that because the conditions

661
00:45:27,058 --> 00:45:31,538
were big, the pictures were beautiful, like the pictures of Nick Cunliffe going

662
00:45:31,538 --> 00:45:35,338
over the falls in a tide race sea kayak on an eight-foot wave.

663
00:45:36,158 --> 00:45:40,718
Ironically, he still uses that picture to advertise programs that are in a saltwater

664
00:45:40,718 --> 00:45:42,438
environment in Wales all the time.

665
00:45:42,738 --> 00:45:46,718
So every time he posts that picture on social media to advertise a program,

666
00:45:46,958 --> 00:45:50,958
I remind the entire audience that that's Lake Superior just because it's compulsory

667
00:45:50,958 --> 00:45:55,078
for anybody from the Great Lakes to point that out because people are always wowed by that picture.

668
00:45:55,118 --> 00:45:57,758
Like, wow, where is this? And it's like Lake Superior.

669
00:45:59,238 --> 00:46:02,698
That's a lake. So, yeah, but, you know, the event, you know,

670
00:46:02,698 --> 00:46:04,778
really was about those things.

671
00:46:04,838 --> 00:46:09,698
And like, it turned out that, you know, there was always a small but very dedicated

672
00:46:09,698 --> 00:46:14,818
group of people who would go to Wimka or Great Lakes and then want to grab for

673
00:46:14,818 --> 00:46:21,418
that next rung on the ladder right past Great Lakes or Wimka in order to have

674
00:46:21,418 --> 00:46:24,038
the next challenge in their skills.

675
00:46:24,758 --> 00:46:28,138
And we tried to, in the first couple of years, we tried to have guest coaches,

676
00:46:28,158 --> 00:46:33,218
but the economics of kayaking really changed probably around 2010,

677
00:46:33,458 --> 00:46:36,698
2012, where the guest coach thing, 2014,

678
00:46:37,078 --> 00:46:40,698
probably around then, the guest coach thing really kind of dried out in terms

679
00:46:40,698 --> 00:46:44,138
of how Like how economically that made sense.

680
00:46:44,358 --> 00:46:48,538
And the big differentiator for us was that for the Gales is that we paid coaches

681
00:46:48,538 --> 00:46:52,958
and we paid them, you know, what I would consider to be a fair rate, right?

682
00:46:53,018 --> 00:46:57,298
In terms of daily, you know, per annum per diem sort of rate.

683
00:46:57,678 --> 00:47:02,098
And so us paying a guest coach that we would potentially end up paying for their

684
00:47:02,098 --> 00:47:06,278
flight, whether it's from Orcas Island in the San Juans or from,

685
00:47:06,278 --> 00:47:10,378
you know, England or wherever, ended up eating through most of our budget.

686
00:47:11,158 --> 00:47:15,418
And I have to credit Scott Faraday with saying, like, maybe there just shouldn't

687
00:47:15,418 --> 00:47:18,278
be celebrity kayakers. It's like celebrity knitting, right?

688
00:47:19,838 --> 00:47:23,258
And, you know, Scott really made the case that, like, he says,

689
00:47:23,338 --> 00:47:24,918
no, I think, like, we're good enough.

690
00:47:25,018 --> 00:47:29,238
Like, when these people come here, it's not like we're talking about apples

691
00:47:29,238 --> 00:47:33,398
and oranges of, like, their experience or our coaching experience, you know?

692
00:47:33,418 --> 00:47:38,678
And we ended up kind of evolving away from guest coaches. And that isn't to

693
00:47:38,678 --> 00:47:42,158
say that I didn't get tons out of those guest coaches, because like I've been

694
00:47:42,158 --> 00:47:45,998
talking about with WIMCO or even for the Gales, like I've really got a lot out of that.

695
00:47:46,598 --> 00:47:50,758
But we noticed through our participant surveys that most people just didn't

696
00:47:50,758 --> 00:47:54,418
care about who coached them. They cared about what they were doing and that they were safe.

697
00:47:55,178 --> 00:47:58,758
And that was it. And so the event evolved towards that.

698
00:47:58,818 --> 00:48:03,898
So it ended up being really good because local coaches ended up getting the

699
00:48:03,898 --> 00:48:08,158
spotlight and being treated like the rock star paddlers from the other regions.

700
00:48:09,218 --> 00:48:10,538
What's the next step for the Gales?

701
00:48:11,387 --> 00:48:15,207
I think the evolution of the Gales will probably be that some younger whippersnappers

702
00:48:15,207 --> 00:48:17,827
will probably take it on and evolve it further.

703
00:48:17,987 --> 00:48:22,107
I've had a couple of conversations with some younger folks who are up-and-coming

704
00:48:22,107 --> 00:48:25,927
coaches, and they seem excited by the idea.

705
00:48:25,947 --> 00:48:29,207
I'm not sure if they'll end up taking it over or starting their own event or

706
00:48:29,207 --> 00:48:33,387
whatever it is, but I would be interested to see what they would come up with

707
00:48:33,387 --> 00:48:36,247
because they're kind of at the age that I was when I wanted this event,

708
00:48:36,387 --> 00:48:38,487
and they're already really good coaches.

709
00:48:38,487 --> 00:48:42,627
So I would say I would almost be more interested in what they would do than

710
00:48:42,627 --> 00:48:44,787
what I would do, because we've seen what I would do.

711
00:48:44,947 --> 00:48:49,247
And obviously, like there are pros and cons of everything that I did in being

712
00:48:49,247 --> 00:48:50,327
self-reflective on that.

713
00:48:50,427 --> 00:48:55,327
But I would say that what someone new might do with that event,

714
00:48:55,387 --> 00:48:59,047
if I managed to hand it off, I'd be really excited to see what they would do with it.

715
00:48:59,247 --> 00:49:01,967
Yeah. I mean, somebody will take it in a direction that you never would have

716
00:49:01,967 --> 00:49:03,947
expected and make something even more amazing.

717
00:49:04,507 --> 00:49:09,827
Yeah, but to have somebody kind of pick it up and carry on the thing that you built and really loved.

718
00:49:09,907 --> 00:49:13,087
It was like Christmas every year I did it, where, I mean, it was so much fun.

719
00:49:13,187 --> 00:49:17,167
Everybody enjoyed it and, you know, was having a really good time,

720
00:49:17,267 --> 00:49:18,667
you know, doing the event.

721
00:49:18,827 --> 00:49:23,807
So, it'd be great to see that carry on. And you kept the event pretty small, right?

722
00:49:24,687 --> 00:49:29,747
We did. We got up to, I think, about 70 one year. I think it was the third year

723
00:49:29,747 --> 00:49:37,787
when we went to the apostles and we ended up having the event at the casino up in up near Redcliffe.

724
00:49:38,247 --> 00:49:41,167
Yeah, Redcliffe. That was it. The Redcliffe casino.

725
00:49:42,027 --> 00:49:46,407
And it was too big. I felt like the quality wasn't as good.

726
00:49:46,507 --> 00:49:50,787
And, and that, you know, like, I didn't get to talk to everybody and not everybody

727
00:49:50,787 --> 00:49:55,447
kind of got the same vibe from it. And obviously, it being held in kind of a

728
00:49:55,447 --> 00:49:59,367
strange environment, you know, a casino that wasn't exactly to everyone's taste,

729
00:49:59,427 --> 00:50:01,307
particularly mine. I'm not a casino person.

730
00:50:01,967 --> 00:50:05,687
So that was it was really kind of strange, to be honest.

731
00:50:05,927 --> 00:50:08,967
And then when in the next year, we kind of moved it down.

732
00:50:09,047 --> 00:50:11,887
And that's where we got some amazing help from Bill Thompson.

733
00:50:11,887 --> 00:50:15,967
And when we moved the event to Munising is really when I felt like the event

734
00:50:15,967 --> 00:50:20,807
finally kind of figured out what it was, is when we moved to Munising for a

735
00:50:20,807 --> 00:50:23,007
number of years in a row where we were above.

736
00:50:23,787 --> 00:50:27,807
I think it was called Sydney Shark Bay Bar and Grill. It was like an Australian

737
00:50:27,807 --> 00:50:32,107
themed seafood grill and bar, bar and grill.

738
00:50:32,187 --> 00:50:37,107
And Bill Thompson held Ice Fest above that restaurant every year. Okay. Yeah.

739
00:50:37,359 --> 00:50:42,019
And Bill turned us on to that, which gave us a room where we could plan every

740
00:50:42,019 --> 00:50:45,219
day with the with the participants and have our meals together,

741
00:50:45,359 --> 00:50:49,239
which was another huge lesson from Wimka is that when everyone eats together

742
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:53,359
that you kind of get a little bit of extra face time with the participants where

743
00:50:53,359 --> 00:50:54,819
they get to ask questions and

744
00:50:54,819 --> 00:50:58,879
you get to learn about them as well as them getting to learn about you.

745
00:50:58,879 --> 00:51:03,339
So you get to see people in a light that you wouldn't if you didn't eat together,

746
00:51:03,459 --> 00:51:07,059
because you end up learning about like what things that they are good at,

747
00:51:07,139 --> 00:51:08,459
right? Because everybody's up there to learn.

748
00:51:08,559 --> 00:51:11,259
And so they might not necessarily be great at what they're up there to learn.

749
00:51:11,519 --> 00:51:15,999
But you kind of get to hear about them in the context of things that they do

750
00:51:15,999 --> 00:51:18,199
every day that are that they are really good at.

751
00:51:18,419 --> 00:51:21,879
And it kind of builds a relationship with the participants that I think is really

752
00:51:21,879 --> 00:51:23,939
different than a lot of the other events.

753
00:51:24,039 --> 00:51:27,139
And I really enjoyed that. and so the

754
00:51:27,139 --> 00:51:30,019
getting to meet uh you know for meals in that spot was

755
00:51:30,019 --> 00:51:33,379
really good and when we eventually moved to marquette we

756
00:51:33,379 --> 00:51:36,219
were using bodega which if anybody wants to

757
00:51:36,219 --> 00:51:40,799
visit marquette you should go to bodega libby is the owner there and she really

758
00:51:40,799 --> 00:51:45,299
was very tolerant where our event was basically hosted in half of her restaurant

759
00:51:45,299 --> 00:51:49,839
on the weekend where like you know there it's like a college weekend and there's

760
00:51:49,839 --> 00:51:53,099
festivals and stuff and she really like you know pulled out all the stops on

761
00:51:53,099 --> 00:51:55,179
both the food and the hospitality while we were there.

762
00:51:55,679 --> 00:52:02,239
And that, you know, those two places really, I feel helped form that kind of

763
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:05,619
final stage of the gales where it was not moving around so much,

764
00:52:05,699 --> 00:52:09,299
but had a really good location because what we were looking for is places next

765
00:52:09,299 --> 00:52:13,339
to rocks, but with some surf beaches and where you could kind of find a way

766
00:52:13,339 --> 00:52:15,819
to either A, get into the wind or B,

767
00:52:15,919 --> 00:52:18,979
get out of the wind, depending on the, on what was going on.

768
00:52:19,139 --> 00:52:22,899
And those two spots, Both Marquette and Munising were really good for that,

769
00:52:22,999 --> 00:52:27,839
and we ended up working with the Park Service as well for Grand Island and Pictured

770
00:52:27,839 --> 00:52:30,499
Rocks National Lakeshore, and they were really accommodating to us.

771
00:52:30,939 --> 00:52:37,259
Well, thank you for your years of organizing and working both Wimka Symposium as well as the Gales.

772
00:52:37,359 --> 00:52:41,559
So definitely made a huge contribution to the sport in those areas and more.

773
00:52:41,919 --> 00:52:47,459
So a couple of questions here. So you can only pick one, surf boat,

774
00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:48,879
whitewater boat, seaboat.

775
00:52:51,059 --> 00:52:54,179
You know, man, that's a really tough one.

776
00:52:56,092 --> 00:52:59,572
You know, sea kayaking has given me a lot, you know, in terms of like,

777
00:52:59,592 --> 00:53:01,272
you can go anywhere, you can do anything.

778
00:53:01,532 --> 00:53:05,852
But I always think like, if I had to go down to one thing, depending on where

779
00:53:05,852 --> 00:53:07,252
I lived, it might be surf boat.

780
00:53:07,372 --> 00:53:13,712
All right. Because surfing is so important to me that I would say at this point,

781
00:53:13,732 --> 00:53:18,012
it might actually be surf kayak with like, but it's like a, how to put it like

782
00:53:18,012 --> 00:53:21,012
a 60, 40 tie with a, with a, a small,

783
00:53:21,172 --> 00:53:23,772
amazing sea kayak.

784
00:53:23,812 --> 00:53:27,252
Like, you know, the one that I paddle now that surfs awesome,

785
00:53:27,352 --> 00:53:28,952
but you can also do trips out of it.

786
00:53:29,012 --> 00:53:34,132
But I'd be really, really torn, but I would probably just nudge it towards surfing.

787
00:53:34,352 --> 00:53:35,592
All right. There's no wrong answer.

788
00:53:36,432 --> 00:53:39,972
Favorite sea kayak? Oh, Ares 15.5.

789
00:53:40,132 --> 00:53:44,332
I've tried all of these other kind of newer, super maneuverable boats,

790
00:53:44,432 --> 00:53:49,252
and I still have not found one that it is as much fun to play in as the Ares.

791
00:53:49,352 --> 00:53:52,512
And I've surfed almost everywhere in it from down in Matanzas.

792
00:53:52,572 --> 00:53:56,812
I managed to hop in and somebody's on Skookum Chuck Narrows,

793
00:53:56,812 --> 00:54:00,932
and I've surfed it on rivers, I've surfed it on the lake, I've surfed it in

794
00:54:00,932 --> 00:54:03,172
the ocean, and done trips with it.

795
00:54:03,252 --> 00:54:06,272
And it's like, it's good enough on a trip that like, you know,

796
00:54:06,272 --> 00:54:09,672
trading into another boat that I don't like as much is a little painful.

797
00:54:09,712 --> 00:54:12,672
But like, it's one of those boats where, you know, like I get a new one.

798
00:54:12,992 --> 00:54:18,772
And then all I do is adjust the hip pads and the foot pegs, and then I'm off. It just fits amazing.

799
00:54:19,412 --> 00:54:24,052
And it's still one of the only boats where I may have to send a video for reference

800
00:54:24,052 --> 00:54:27,472
where like you're surfing down wave, the boat broaches.

801
00:54:27,692 --> 00:54:31,272
And as soon as the foam pile releases even a little from the tail,

802
00:54:31,312 --> 00:54:33,932
the boat points on its own back down wave.

803
00:54:34,740 --> 00:54:38,280
And I haven't seen too many other boats do that. And it's really,

804
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,040
really fun and super stable to paddle in.

805
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:43,860
So very hard recommendation on that one.

806
00:54:43,900 --> 00:54:48,480
And those new carbon Kevlar pre-impregnated layups, like having a boat,

807
00:54:48,540 --> 00:54:51,840
because I remember having like the first areas that I had probably weighed about

808
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,040
70 and now they're down to about 40 pounds.

809
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,520
So a huge difference and it definitely like

810
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,440
you know being a smaller guy like

811
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:03,220
i'm only five foot nine like being able to totally lift my

812
00:55:03,220 --> 00:55:05,980
boat over my head to get it onto the roof rack even in the

813
00:55:05,980 --> 00:55:10,220
wind is really important let alone the the difference in surfing performance

814
00:55:10,220 --> 00:55:15,420
all right one other here's a sport that i know nothing about admittedly but

815
00:55:15,420 --> 00:55:18,940
we've got a lot of international international listeners so they'll be interested

816
00:55:18,940 --> 00:55:24,320
in this one favorite soccer team and why Oh, the mighty Tottenham Hotspur.

817
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:33,400
Yeah. I went to study abroad in Ireland in 94 and I stopped in London and someone

818
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:38,040
gave me a ticket to go see Tottenham play in the FA Cup midweek.

819
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:43,540
And the FA Cup is the longest running cup competition in the world for football

820
00:55:43,540 --> 00:55:45,900
because it goes all the way back to the 19th century.

821
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:51,480
And it's an amazing competition where you can have a team picture like a baseball

822
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:55,660
tournament where you could have the Mississippi Mudhens playing the Tigers or

823
00:55:55,660 --> 00:55:58,540
the New York Yankees. That's what the FA Cup is.

824
00:55:58,660 --> 00:56:03,560
And sometimes the Yankees get knocked out of that cup by the Mississippi Mudhens.

825
00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:08,920
But in this case, Tottenham Hotspur is a North London club that's been around since 1882.

826
00:56:09,240 --> 00:56:12,920
And there was no MLS when I went to England.

827
00:56:13,020 --> 00:56:17,420
So Tottenham became my club because I'd been there. And there was no American

828
00:56:17,420 --> 00:56:19,360
club system at that point.

829
00:56:19,660 --> 00:56:23,000
So I followed Tottenham for a very long time. And like, you know,

830
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,840
obviously, you know, kind of like most Lions fans in Michigan, right?

831
00:56:26,900 --> 00:56:29,980
If you had to think of an analogy about the performance of the team,

832
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:34,080
Tottenham is kind of like the Lions in that regard, where like,

833
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,040
you know, they have not won anything in a very long time, but.

834
00:56:37,737 --> 00:56:42,137
Deep, deep affection for Tottenham and for the football. And I even put their

835
00:56:42,137 --> 00:56:47,157
motto on one of our Gale shirts, which is, which means to dare is to do.

836
00:56:47,317 --> 00:56:50,037
And, you know, that's definitely the Tottenham motto because like,

837
00:56:50,097 --> 00:56:53,877
they'll go out swinging against, you know, the biggest club that there is.

838
00:56:53,977 --> 00:56:56,937
And like, they may end up losing 5-1 or something like that,

839
00:56:56,997 --> 00:56:58,897
but you can't say that they didn't try.

840
00:56:59,257 --> 00:57:03,837
All right. And you mentioned one other kind of reference earlier.

841
00:57:03,997 --> 00:57:06,497
So you were mentioning Ireland, but we talked a little bit before.

842
00:57:06,777 --> 00:57:09,877
So the next question is, why should everyone be a U2 fan?

843
00:57:10,937 --> 00:57:16,657
Man, you know, U2 is so eccentric and so great.

844
00:57:16,857 --> 00:57:22,457
And when I think of like what a band should be, it's four guys who've been friends

845
00:57:22,457 --> 00:57:26,357
for like, you know, gosh, now it's probably like 50 years or something like that.

846
00:57:26,977 --> 00:57:32,457
And same members of the band and they have their crew and all of their,

847
00:57:32,497 --> 00:57:37,537
you know, kind of investments in Ireland rather than going abroad.

848
00:57:37,697 --> 00:57:42,037
They could have, like, because a lot of Irish bands went and moved off to England or America or whatever.

849
00:57:42,257 --> 00:57:44,657
And they stayed in Ireland rather than do that.

850
00:57:45,117 --> 00:57:49,897
And in terms of their performances, like, you know, they kind of go back to that.

851
00:57:50,757 --> 00:57:53,897
Very early punk rock stage

852
00:57:53,897 --> 00:57:56,677
and the post-punk movement because they're contemporaries of

853
00:57:56,677 --> 00:58:00,657
bands like Joy Division and you know television

854
00:58:00,657 --> 00:58:03,497
and the ramones and people like that

855
00:58:03,497 --> 00:58:07,517
like people forget that and that you know understandably like some of their

856
00:58:07,517 --> 00:58:11,057
later catalog releases and tours like you know huge stadiums and things like

857
00:58:11,057 --> 00:58:16,377
that but their ability as a four-piece to connect with an audience i still have

858
00:58:16,377 --> 00:58:22,917
not seen anybody who is as good at that as you two is and i mean like i saw the original

859
00:58:23,097 --> 00:58:25,617
Joshua Tree tour in 1987,

860
00:58:25,917 --> 00:58:27,917
when I was like 14 years old at the Silverdome.

861
00:58:28,437 --> 00:58:33,357
And if anything, the 2017 reunion tour where they played the entire Joshua Tree

862
00:58:33,357 --> 00:58:35,497
was actually better than the first one that I saw.

863
00:58:36,237 --> 00:58:41,857
And still blown away by that. That might have been one of the best live concerts that I've ever seen.

864
00:58:41,957 --> 00:58:46,397
And obviously anybody who follows me on social media, like I've seen a lot of shows. Yeah.

865
00:58:47,517 --> 00:58:51,897
But that was really, really special. And I really enjoyed those the two reunion

866
00:58:51,897 --> 00:58:56,937
tours that i got to see they're just a great live act and you know i hope in

867
00:58:56,937 --> 00:59:03,037
the future that we might get a little bit more of risk taking and experimentation than,

868
00:59:03,777 --> 00:59:07,957
pop music because that's what i really enjoy and you too is like you know that,

869
00:59:08,497 --> 00:59:12,917
right at the edge of experimentation and disaster is where i think they're best,

870
00:59:13,918 --> 00:59:17,678
I was in an elevator in Dublin once, and I'm listening to the music,

871
00:59:17,678 --> 00:59:19,198
and I'm like, this sounds really familiar.

872
00:59:19,358 --> 00:59:22,318
And I finally figured out that it was Sunday Bloody Sunday and elevator music.

873
00:59:24,238 --> 00:59:31,878
So one short anecdote of when I first went to Dublin in the 90s, I showed up in Dublin,

874
00:59:31,978 --> 00:59:36,698
and the very first pub I walked into was one that I'd read about in the guidebook

875
00:59:36,698 --> 00:59:40,138
called Mulligan's, which is in Poolbeck Street on the south side of the Liffey.

876
00:59:40,258 --> 00:59:43,198
And that's It's where a bunch of writers from the Irish times go and hang out

877
00:59:43,198 --> 00:59:44,178
and watch football and stuff.

878
00:59:44,258 --> 00:59:50,338
And it's definitely a cool old man style pub, but the, the barman walks over

879
00:59:50,338 --> 00:59:53,218
and he says, what do you have? And I said, well, I have a Guinness. And he goes American.

880
00:59:53,398 --> 00:59:54,918
And I'm like, yeah, I'm an American.

881
00:59:55,118 --> 00:59:58,278
And he's like, he says, Bono and the lads were just here.

882
00:59:58,358 --> 01:00:01,658
You just missed them. And I'm like, I knew they were on tour.

883
01:00:01,758 --> 01:00:03,498
So I knew he was kind of putting me on a bit.

884
01:00:05,578 --> 01:00:09,158
And then, you know, he, he goes on about that for a bit. And I knew windmill

885
01:00:09,158 --> 01:00:10,798
lane is actually quite close to that pub.

886
01:00:10,958 --> 01:00:14,798
So like, you know, it stood a chance of being true, but then I was like,

887
01:00:14,818 --> 01:00:16,418
I think they're on tour. I don't think that's true.

888
01:00:16,678 --> 01:00:19,758
Cause you know, this is before like, you know, the internet was widespread at

889
01:00:19,758 --> 01:00:22,598
all. So I didn't have like a total way to validate that.

890
01:00:23,238 --> 01:00:26,778
So on that day, I went to another pub, pretty close to that,

891
01:00:26,878 --> 01:00:29,978
walked in, ordered again as barman says, American.

892
01:00:30,038 --> 01:00:34,038
I go, yeah. And he says, but on the lads were just here. You just missed them.

893
01:00:36,518 --> 01:00:39,338
And then i knew i was i was i was being put on.

894
01:00:41,938 --> 01:00:43,518
Keith where can listeners connect with you,

895
01:00:44,904 --> 01:00:50,044
I still have my internet presence for coaching and paddling called gokayaknow.com.

896
01:00:50,124 --> 01:00:51,624
That's probably one of the best ways.

897
01:00:51,864 --> 01:00:56,084
And then the other way is either on Instagram or Facebook at gokayaknow.

898
01:00:56,504 --> 01:00:59,824
All right. We'll get links to that on the show notes so folks can make that

899
01:00:59,824 --> 01:01:02,964
connection if they've got questions about surfing, the Great Lakes,

900
01:01:03,084 --> 01:01:04,924
and any of the other areas as well.

901
01:01:05,024 --> 01:01:08,444
So, or bands. I can talk bands with you or football.

902
01:01:09,164 --> 01:01:12,624
Yeah, yeah. Bands, football. Yeah, anytime. All right.

903
01:01:12,984 --> 01:01:16,424
Keith, one last question for you. who else would you like to hear as a future

904
01:01:16,424 --> 01:01:17,504
guest on Paddling the Blue?

905
01:01:17,964 --> 01:01:22,484
You know, somebody like Nigel Law from Savannah Canoe and Kayak.

906
01:01:22,864 --> 01:01:28,384
Nigel has been really formative in my paddling and surfing and did my surf kayak

907
01:01:28,384 --> 01:01:30,204
coach training and assessment.

908
01:01:30,684 --> 01:01:35,984
And he runs a really nice shop down in Savannah and definitely has probably

909
01:01:35,984 --> 01:01:39,664
one of the most successful shops in the US at this point, apart from Rutabaga,

910
01:01:39,704 --> 01:01:41,984
which probably is pretty, pretty big as well.

911
01:01:42,084 --> 01:01:47,044
But that that. He's really good, great coach, great shop and like organizes

912
01:01:47,044 --> 01:01:50,444
nice trips and does a lot of really good stuff in Savannah.

913
01:01:50,684 --> 01:01:54,824
I mean, his shop is effectively a community center for Savannah and people come

914
01:01:54,824 --> 01:01:58,524
and do exercise classes, folk shows, art shows.

915
01:01:58,784 --> 01:02:01,224
They had a kid's band recital at his shop.

916
01:02:01,544 --> 01:02:08,124
So, I mean, he's really a fulcrum of that community and he's a very knowledgeable guy and a great coach.

917
01:02:08,304 --> 01:02:11,704
Cool. Well, he and Kristen have done some cool things, so we'll definitely Let

918
01:02:11,704 --> 01:02:13,624
me reach out to him and get him on the show.

919
01:02:14,084 --> 01:02:16,824
So Keith, thank you very much for the opportunity to talk to you,

920
01:02:16,844 --> 01:02:20,264
to hear from you, learn all about great lakes and paddling and surfing and,

921
01:02:20,264 --> 01:02:22,004
and in your history as well.

922
01:02:22,104 --> 01:02:24,424
So thanks for all your contribution to the sport.

923
01:02:24,864 --> 01:02:28,784
Oh, well, thanks John for calling me up. Great chat. Thank you. Thank you.

924
01:02:29,844 --> 01:02:33,664
If you want to be a stronger and more efficient paddler power to the paddle

925
01:02:33,664 --> 01:02:37,264
is packed with fitness guidance and complete descriptions along with photos

926
01:02:37,264 --> 01:02:41,684
of more than 50 exercises to improve your abilities and enjoy your time on the water.

927
01:02:41,844 --> 01:02:45,684
The concept and exercises in this book have helped me become a better paddler

928
01:02:45,684 --> 01:02:47,384
and they can make a difference for you too.

929
01:02:47,564 --> 01:02:51,724
The exercises in the book can help you reduce tension in your shoulders and low back,

930
01:02:51,904 --> 01:02:55,884
use the power of your torso to create leverage and use less energy with each stroke,

931
01:02:56,064 --> 01:02:59,624
use force generated from your lower body to make your paddling strokes more

932
01:02:59,624 --> 01:03:02,684
efficient, have the endurance to handle long days in the boat,

933
01:03:02,824 --> 01:03:07,224
drive through the toughest waves or white water, protect your body against common paddling injuries,

934
01:03:07,464 --> 01:03:09,724
and while you're at it you You might even lose a few pounds,

935
01:03:09,824 --> 01:03:10,764
and who wouldn't mind that?

936
01:03:10,924 --> 01:03:14,924
So visit paddlingexercises.com to get the book and companion DVD.

937
01:03:16,340 --> 01:03:19,320
Keith is a great guy, and his passion for paddling really shows through.

938
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:23,620
He commits to intentional development by working with others and spending time

939
01:03:23,620 --> 01:03:27,260
on the water to grow his personal abilities, and that's definitely something we can all learn from.

940
01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:32,140
Personally, I appreciate his tips and for sharing love for our Great Lakes.

941
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:36,420
Keith has committed many years to bringing fantastic events through the support

942
01:03:36,420 --> 01:03:41,100
of the West Michigan Coastal Kayaking Association's symposium and his own event, the Gales.

943
01:03:41,260 --> 01:03:45,040
And I really commend his willingness to turn an event that he started and grew

944
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:49,140
over to someone else, and to hear his excitement for the evolution of the gales.

945
01:03:49,380 --> 01:03:52,640
Learn more about Keith and the things we talked about in today's episode by

946
01:03:52,640 --> 01:04:00,500
visiting the show notes for this episode, number 120, at www.paddlingtheblue.com slash 120.

947
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:06,360
And thank you to everyone who has clicked the buy me a coffee link on our webpage

948
01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:11,760
at www.paddlingtheblue.com and thrown a few dollars our way to help offset the

949
01:04:11,760 --> 01:04:12,820
cost of producing the show.

950
01:04:13,060 --> 01:04:15,880
It's a real labor of love, and I really enjoy bringing these

951
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:18,960
stories to you and your help to cover the cost of hosting

952
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,240
and production the episodes is appreciated as

953
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:25,840
well thanks again to our partners at onlineseakayaking.com for extending that

954
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:30,720
special offer to you visit onlineseakayaking.com and to the code ptb podcast

955
01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:34,360
to check out and get 10 off just for being a member of the paddling the blue

956
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,360
community until next time thanks again for listening and i look forward to bringing

957
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,160
you the next episode of paddling the blue thank you

958
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,140
for listening to paddling the blue you can subscribe to paddling

959
01:04:45,140 --> 01:04:48,800
the blue on apple music google podcasts spotify or

960
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,980
wherever you find your favorite podcasts please take the time to leave us a

961
01:04:51,980 --> 01:04:56,220
five-star review on apple music we truly appreciate the support and you can

962
01:04:56,220 --> 01:05:00,000
find the show notes for this episode and other episodes along with replays of

963
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:05,460
past episodes contact information and more at paddlingtheblue.com until next

964
01:05:05,460 --> 01:05:07,820
time i hope you get out and paddle the blue.

965
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:14,157
Music.